M4 Sherman Tank - Historically, A Total Death Trap - VIDEO
Дата: 10.06.2016 23:04:14
RedBaronK, on Jun 08 2016 - 21:19, said: Creighton Abrams had unicum stats in his M4 during the war
right? The_Chieftain: This is going to be a long one. Unsure his WN8, but his K/D
ratio is pretty good.
PrinzEugen85, on Jun 08 2016 - 21:43, said: Aside from the fact Chieftain never bothers to mention losses by
aircraft, anti-tank infantry teams, Teller mines, or towed AT guns
like the Flak 88, there was a reason the British were adamant about
getting the Firefly to the frontlines.The_Chieftain: Firefly would not really have helped with aircraft,
anti-tank infantry teams, teller mines, or towed AT guns like the
Flak 88, in all fairness. (and arguably would have been worse
against two of them). When I did my assessment of crew killed per
lost tank in the video, the 'loss' was for all causes, not only
panzers. I suspect that the crews in question weren't all that
worried about the minor detail of just what it was that killed
their tank, as much as the question of 'well, we just got knocked
out, am I going to survive?' And, of course, the figures for
Armored Force personnel losses in general are also irrespective of
cause.
DV_Currie_VC, on Jun 08 2016 - 22:00, said: Yet, many Shermans retained the M3 75mm throughout the war, so it
was still an effective weapon when it was used en-masse. The
Germans would see a long barrel Sherman, and prioritize it. Also,
the British would tend to employ the Fireflies as a 4th tank in a
troop of 4 Shermans, the other 3 being 75 or 76mm tanks. They also
tended to get picked off 1st. Check out the disruption pattern
camouflage on the barrel of most Fireflies - they tried to deceive
the Germans into thinking they were 75mm guns. The_Chieftain: I've actually not seen much documentary evidence showing
that fireflies were, in practice, shot at first. Certainly the
firefly crews may have held that opinion, and camouflaging the gun
barrels certainly wouldn't have hurt anything, but if the Germans
agreed with it, remains to be proven to my mind. Outside of Italy,
British forces didn't use 76mm M1 tanks, though Polish forces did
later in the war, so could find occasional firefly with 76mm tanks.
Rounne, on Jun 08 2016 - 22:06, said: Chieftain is wrong. Death Traps is a reliable source because it is
an eyewitness account. He was there, he lived through it, he wrote
about it. Chieftain did not. The very idea that he promotes that
you disregard an eyewitness account should be suspect to you.
The_Chieftain: I don't disregard eyewitness accounts. I evaluate them, and
disregard those which seem unreasonable. To quote my article on the
subject: "It is up to the reader to make his or her personal
determination as to the accuracy of anything in the book. It is
likely that the things he personally saw are somewhat close to
fact. But statements about machinations seven pay grades higher
than him and several hundred miles away are a little more suspect."
DV_Currie_VC, on Jun 08 2016 - 23:02, said: Stacey pointedly referred, however, to a study by historians
of the European Theatre of the U.S. Army on 'how long it took a
soldier's memory of a battle...to fail.' Their conclusion was
that this occured in 6 days. More recently, military
historian Dominick Graham sounded the alarm that memory 'is
particularly unreliable after a subject has talked to other peple,
compared notes, and repeated his story many times. By then,
he may no longer tell trugh from fiction." (pp. xvi xvii of the
introduction to this book) The_Chieftain: After one of our firefights, my platoon held an after-action
review the next day. Had we written our memories separately, and
had a third party compare them, one would think we had been
involved in a half-dozen different battles.
Furysghost, on Jun 09 2016 - 01:58, said: While many authors like to lay the blame for armored losses on
Patton and his refusal to develop bigger gunned tanks, that blame
lies with McNair and his shortsighted policies (he was more
concerned with the logistics of an additional vehicle and caliber
to support) that did not reflect the current state of combat. This
is an excerpt from a letter by General McNair to General Devers who
strongly pushed for M26 production and deployment: (Pershing)
" The M4 tank, particularly the M4A3, has been widely hailed
as the best tank on the battlefield today. There are indications
that the enemy concurs in this view. Apparently, the M4 is an ideal
combination of mobility, dependability, speed, protection, and
firepower. Other than this particular request—which represents the
British view—there has been no call from any theater for a 90 mm
tank gun. There appears to be no fear on the part of our
forces of the German Mark VI (Tiger) tank... There can be no basis
for the T26 tank other than the conception of a tank versus tank
duel—which is believed unsound and unnecessary. Both British
and American battle experience has demonstrated that the antitank
gun in suitable number and disposed properly is the master of the
tank. Any attempt to armor and gun tanks so as to outmatch antitank
guns is foredoomed to failure... There is no indication that the 76
mm antitank gun is inadequate against the German Mark VI (Tiger)
tank" It is clear that McNair did not understand the realities of
armored combat as in the Bolded section he both shows ignorance of
the reality of M4s facing the Tiger and that he was strongly wedded
to the tank destroyer doctrine in that a tank to tank duel is
"unsound and unnecessary". The tone of the letter is also
insulting in that it insinuates that Devers is promoting the
"British view" versus Devers's deeply held views. While many people
mourned his death via friendly fire in 1944 during a bombing raid,
I truly believe for the reasons stated above he was the worst US
general in WWII as he had an influence in training, selection of
leadership, and equipment selection that worked to the detriment of
US forces.The_Chieftain: Although he certainly held those opinions, I have seen
little evidence to support the fact that those opinions had a
significant effect on the realities on the ground. He never stopped
Ordnance from developing new equipment, his position did not seem
to cause any significant delay in the implementation of M26. I
think your last line is contradictory: Considering the task the man
was faced with, and that he was overall responsible for training
and equipping the US Army which did so well in the war in the
Pacific, CBI, Africa and Europe, I submit he did an
outstanding job. His opinion on tank combat may have been wrong,
but it seems to have not caused significant problem with the one
exception of HVAP ammunition, and focusing on one single issue
(that of the tank gun) when his responsibility lay on everything
from fuel trucks and shower tents through artillery
ammunition and tanks is disingenuous.
charley2222, on Jun 09 2016 - 14:20, said: 1 question for the fan boy why most of the m4 crew
put a lot of garbage on the m4 ? maybe because they
feel lacking of protection lol The_Chieftain: Most of us have only one life. People who are vampires, or
think they are cats, may be exceptions. You may have the best armor
in the world, but unless presented with a good reason not to,
you're still going to add more, just because you want to reduce
every chance possible. As mentioned, both German and allied
tank crews were inclined to add armor as they could, despite the
recommendations of the engineers. The difference is that the
Germans generally followed their engineers' advice, and Americans
generally did not (exception of Patton, who enforced it
vigorously).
charley2222, on Jun 09 2016 - 16:49, said: ok going to blow up some m4 in the game 
m4 Sherman Veteran speak how disgusting
they are on the 21.30 sec m4The_Chieftain: I interviewed a tanker two months ago who loved his Sherman.
No accounting for taste.
mbrolin, on Jun 10 2016 - 19:19, said: There's only 3 engagements with positively identified
Tigers.The_Chieftain: In fairness, that's only in Northwest Europe. A lot more
encounters in Italy and Africa, many of which didn't go too well
for the Tigers.
M4 Sherman Tank - Historically, A Total Death Trap - VIDEO